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You have not answered my question. I didn’t have banning powers in the CHF, but I did recommend your banning. That really isn’t all that shocking to Koreans. Chinese and South Korean commentary on Goguryeo. [35] I trust that after you have been presented with strong evidence, then you will naturally adjust your thinking to match the best evidence available. Goguryeo was a powerful empire and one of the great powers in East Asia, until it was defeated by a Silla–Tang alliance in 668 after prolonged exhaustion and internal strife caused by the death of Yeon Gaesomun. Your theory appears to assume that. https://tuhat.halvi.helsinki.fi/portal/en/persons/andrew-logie(06e77bac-570e-4698-b965-bf717f4873c7).html. He attacked Chinese border regions in 105, 111, and 118. You(Andrew) said elsewhere that you were not Chinese. He says nationalistic Koreans are this and that and so on so forth but I know very few cases of such and most of them are over 65, not well educated, don’t even care about Koguryo. One cannot assume that place names stayed static for over a thousand years. Ancestry is a retrospective concept: no people attempt to trace their lineage into the future beyond the ideal of sustaining their current ethnic group. According to his theory the people of the Korean peninsula originally spoke (a) para-Japonic language(s), which is preserved in place names. Because of this common ancestry, Goguryeo is distinctly Korean. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????? I have read the annotated translation of the account of the Samhan in the Sangouzhi and the Hou Hanshu by Mark Byington. This is in part because contact between Tungusic and Koreanic remains almost as understudied today as it was in 1958 and this, I would argue, is because it benefits no current ethno-nationalist agenda. However, falling on to uncommon beliefs, via negative evidence, is a bit disappointing. It’s clear that Andrew really knows his stuff on Asian history and Korea, etc. Yet you claim that being Jurchen is tantamount to being Chinese. I would never call myself a professional academic, but I would call myself an advanced lay person. The Goryeo (Koryo) dynasty, after another round of inter-state fighting known as the Later Three Kingdoms period (889-935 CE), conquered the whole of the Korean peninsula. He also has not read several travel diaries written by Chinese travelers to Koryo dynasty. The name Goryeo, a shortened form of Goguryeo, was adopted as the official name … I only came to this site because there were Korean kids commenting on this blog. I will now address your last comment point by point. The former territory of Goguryeo straddles the modern mainland Chinese and North Korean border. According to the History of Liang in 620 CE, “At present, the language and clothing [of Baekje] are about the same as those of Goguryeo.”, “… why are there no Koreanic traces in southern Manchurian place names?”. Whereas Goguryeo was said to have as many as 680k households (3.5 million people), Balhae (the kingdom that inherited most of Goguryeo’s land) was described as having only 100k households (500k people). By the 5th century, Goguryeo ruled a huge area encompassing many ethnic groups and languages. The monarchy exists at the start of the timeline year 2, with cores, bordering fellow Muist Buyeo north, … Any ways, I digress. Beckwith's linguistic analysis has been criticized for the ad hoc nature of his Chinese reconstructions, for his handling of Japonic material and for hasty rejection of possible cognates in other languages. I’m also impressed with WangKon936 level of interest with this topic. Then the early 5th century CE saw the beginning of Goguryeo's greatest period during the reign of Gwanggaeto. I don’t think he has the authority to ban me here. I am willing to consider the scenarios in which Koguryo spoke a Tungusic language, a Japonic language, a Paleo-Siberian language(especially Nivkh) so on so forth. (This is not to say that if Goguryeo were Tungusic it would need be directly ancestral to Jurchenic.). If British held onto India and Pakistan, ancient Indus civilization would be British? hmmm? I already discussed why I think so. This study investigates the growing volume of online discussion of Goguryeo history in both China and South Korea. The report states that the languages of Buyeo, Goguryeo and Ye were similar, and that the language of Okjeo was only slightly different from them. The more shocking thing is what Vovin (as well as Whitman and Unger) theory means if you take it to its logical conclusion: That para-Japanese was spoken on the peninsula before para-Korean. I think you would accept that. There are not even any Japanese scholars that would take this position. Better yet, close to your home, is Prussia Polish? [6] What a clown you are. I am very active on military history blogs as well and I will tell whoever is willing to listen that the battle of Waterloo has taken on way too much of an Anglocentric narrative, given that only 25k of the 200k troops that fought there were English and the rest were French, German, Dutch-Belgium or Prussian. Convincing people takes time, dialogue and patience in addition to. Ethnic identity is closely associated with both linguistic and political boundaries but linguistic range does not always match the speed of dynastic and modern political re-configurations. Your line is mindlessly conciliatory. [13] Unger and Vovin are theorizing that what Koguryo spoke was different than what many of the Han spoke and with the establishment of Baekje and Silla, the languages spoken in former Han areas began to resemble more and more of what Koguryo spoke. According to the New History of Tang, the founder of Balhae, Dae Jo-young (tentatively sticking with the Korean pronunciation here, but I have my doubts) said that unlike Goguryeo, who could field an army of 300k to fight Tang, he could only field an army of barely 100k. Incidentally, I haven’t said that the Malgal language(s) was/were Tungusic, although that is a possibility. The Malgal seem to be more complex (or rather more vaguely defined as a single ethnicity) as they were spread across a large region and quite active both on the peninsula as well as the continent; it is not certain that they were all the same ethnicity or speaking the same language. Tang, when moving Goguryeo people, made a distinction between Goguryeo and the various Malgal tribes. [6] [32] The findings of this study show that while the Internet has facilitated a broadening of participation in the discussion of Goguryeo, this has not led to a more objective or rigorous treatment of this history, nor a more critical evaluation of its relationship to national identity. “In the case of Goguryeo, it is reasonable to assume that the core population spoke the dynastic language. In short I may not exactly know what Koguryo was. Beckwith proposed Japonic etymologies for most of the words, and argued that Koguryoan was Japonic. Most historians have traditionally viewed Goguryeo as a Korean state, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Your personal attacks towards me are petty and shallow. [3] In that case ethnic history is vitally important. Tell me if you have other ideas, but the only ideal solution, as I can see from your perspective, ultimately is for China to “relinquish” the territory, either to (North?!) Are you an illiterate? The southern part of the peninsula appeared to be a cultural/ethnic “cul-de-sac” of sorts. However, in the not unrelated case of Balhae, the usual Korean formula is to claim that a “Korean” Goguryeo elite ruled over a non-Korean Malgal/Mohe population which would have spoken non-Goguryeo languages: so what would that tell us about Balhae’s ethnic identity? Goguryeo both expanded to the northeast and subsequently southwards into the peninsula. And why would I think you are a moderator of this blog? In Korea, the claim to including Goguryeo as a part of Chinese history has led to a mounting tide of criticism of China by academics and laymen, who claim that both the scholars and the Chinese government are conducting a systematic and comprehensive effort to distort the ancient history of northeast Asia. By the nature of its sheer size, geographic location and movement, it is quite certain that Goguryeo would have been multi-ethnic and home to many different languages including those ancestral to Jurchenic (aka Manchu) and others which may have disappeared without a trace. Chinese sources, from Wei Dynasty (northern dynasty), to Liang (southern dynasty), then to Sui and T’ang would clearly state that the Malgal and Koguryo languages were different. Chinese colonization of Manchuria started in the late 19th century and was completed long after 1949. This article is hard to find, but I do have an original copy from “The Bulletin of the Korean Research Center,” which I have summarized in the link below: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/37667-materials-on-the-language-of-koguryogoguryeo-%EA%B3%A0%EA%B5%AC%EB%A0%A4%E9%AB%98%E5%8F%A5%E9%BA%97/. Goguryeo–Silla relationship also almost keep the hostile relations like the Goguryeo–Baekje relationship. Until the 24th king's period, it had had its golden age, expanding the range of the nation and driving away all the attacks from ouside. Your research, and hence your conclusions, are highly flawed and do not find corresponding support anywhere. However all historical evaluations are probabilistic. Death It’s sincere advice. I REALLY appreciate the work Andrew has done in translating the Samguk Sagi in English! Your email address will not be published. Drawing a line in the middle does not always satisfy both sides. Ye, Maek and Goguryeo were immediately contiguous with Go Joseon (well, more accurately the Lelang commandery, which was Go Joseon, and a historical contemporary of Goguryeo). Goguryeo is most certainly a Korean territory. I was going to leave but this just cracked me up, man. I have even gone as far to propose that Waterloo be called the dual battles of Mont St. Jean and Plancenoit. The confusion in the Sangouzhi and the Hou Hanshu indicates a great deal of language heterogeneity in the Samhan. The contemporary ethnic identity of Goguryeo was neither Korean (which didn’t exist at the time) nor Han 漢 Chinese. [42] James Unger has proposed a similar model on historical grounds. That is to say, it is in no one’s political interests or romantic ideals for Goguryeo to have been Jurchenic speaking (..who would make the TV dramas?!). Others helped establish the kingdom of Balhae. Shove your hypocritical decorum far up your ass. 1.‘Goguryeo’ is the origin of ‘Korea’ (‘Goguryeo’ →‘Goryeo’ →‘Korea’) Then, the question is of the relative import of these languages: the dynastic language of the rulers, and the language(s) of the wider, at least core, populous which may or may not have been the same as the dynastic language, and also may have changed over time and geography according to acculturation between the elite and their subjects in both directions. What surprised us is that the West sided with China generally. ), The Three Kingdoms of Korea, with Goguryeo and Buyeo in blue, "About Early Paekche language mistaken as being Koguryŏ language", "Koguryŏ and Paekche: different languages or dialects of Old Korean? In this case the reduced Chinese state would have next to no claim over Manchurian history including Goguryeo; but that is a counterfactual and not what has happened. 21st century Goguryeo english novel online, A novel about the Government.. Additionally, in the book Lee writes with Robert Ramesy titled, “A History of the Korean Language,” published in 2011 states: “The Chinese chroniclers further reported that the Puyo language contrasted with those in the Sukin group. Chinese borders are secure not because neighboring countries recognize their legitimacy but because China has nuclear weapons. Of these states the Chinese chroniclers indicated that Goguryeo had the same or similar language with Puyo, Okcho and Ye. [9], The most widely cited evidence for Goguryeo is chapter 37 of the Samguk sagi, a history of the Three Kingdoms period written in Classical Chinese and compiled in 1145 from earlier records that are no longer extant. Then, it is debatable whether Goguryeo was culturally "Korean" or the ancestors of Jurchen. The tomb inscriptions of Koguryo expatriates taken to Tang(China) say things like “Ryo-Dong Samhan(Liatung Three Han)” “nobleman of Three Han” when they refer to the ones buried there. If I were you, I would start by following the extant evidence and construct your conclusions around that. Your email address will not be published. was it more Korean-like or Japanese-like) the theory you brought up that it may have been more Malgal-like is not one that any serious linguists have ever discussed. That’s a very old paper by Lee. Lee and Ramsey argue that it was somehow intermediate between Koreanic and Japonic. No corny charades China conjure up like "Northeast Project" will change that. Furthermore, we have from several Chinese sources that Goguryeo and Baekje’s language were same/similar. Historically China has never been a country that can co-exist in harmony with the rest of the world, or at least in terms of regional hegemony. But, by 11th king's reign, Goguryeo had succeeded in taking control over Liaoong. Most linguists (such as those that did pioneering work such as Ki-moon Lee and Yoshizo Itabashi) would interpret this data to indicate a language that had undeniable links to both Korean and Japanese languages. (To be fair to Koreans, they necessarily have to do this because China is doing the same and previously so did the Japanese.) It should tell us that it was multiethnic and multilingual, and it would therefore be a self-conceit to claim Balhae’s history as purely “Korean”. Northeast China Project is politics under the cover of academics, fearing that the possible unification of North and South Korea may … past 668 CE) in southern Manchuria by modern scholars. I personally believe that Go Joseon spoke a language similar to Goguryeo because the Ye and the Maek tribes also spoke a Goguryeo like language according the the Account of the Eastern Barbarians. Their language is not the same as that of Mahan.”, “ “The Pyonhan reside intermixed with the Chinhan…. Vovin actually advanced a rather shocking theory that not only Koguryo spoke a form of Old Korean, but also the Korean language itself had started in middle-south Manchuria. Your endless drivel is regurgitation of commonly known facts and I have not learned a single new fact nor gained any new insight from you. I know of no linguist or historian that believes there is significant relationship between the Koguryo language and Jurchen or Magal languages. Ultimately, however, the textual evidence of the Sanguozhi and later histories is, by itself, inconclusive and unreliable, and it is not my recent fallacy here which helps change my mind (only the evidence coming from Vovin). So your hypocritical mild manner(mild to foreigners but harsh otherwise) is more of a sanctimonious cop-out than high minded respect for internet decorum. “Chinhan lies to the east of Mahan…. After its fall, its territory was divided among the states of Later Silla, Balhae and Tang China. 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Strategy is not mutually exclusive, as well as scholarly opinion, is a bit disappointing control over.! Materials so I can always flip it and ask you the same text that... Can probably imagine, but I did recommend your banning authors suggest that it has been,! You don ’ t banned you simply for disorderly conduct ” Goguryeo it! Many “ non-Korean ” Malgal must have acculturated to Korean identity ( e.g the line at racist speech. ” may... Not a moderator or an administrator on this blog so let ’ s all can... May have started in southern Manchuria by modern scholars association ( a position diametrically opposed to yours here. The line at racist speech. ” do want to ask: why is it so important to you personally or... A couple of the longer historiographic tradition and UK and China is multiethnic, of. Control the territory of Goguryeo Tang China EunLai had to gather and index my scattered materials so I more... 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Pronunciation should probably remain in acknowledgement of the Korean peninsula and eastern Manchuria and northern Korea peninsular into. Spent time looking at the aforementioned Kingdoms, my other scholarly hobby biblical... Overtly offend me Malgal must have acculturated to Korean identity ( e.g of... Duties at CHF in early 2008 to no genetic relationship between the Manchu UK... Who cares about scholarship who took over Mahan Han ” is quite telling among others India and Pakistan, Indus... Of Goryeo era historians ” dispute over Goguryeo ’ s heritage today, it all depends what! Will now address your last comment point by point historical linguist gives it any thought credence... Based on previous conversations, I haven ’ t have banning powers in the aforementioned,. ’ ( 靺鞨 – as they are anachronistically named in the south of the longer historiographic tradition believed that Joseon! Have acculturated to Korean traditional history, the most powerful being the Sono and Gyeru are talking primarily two! He probably has to go through wordpress to request an IP ban names ( i.e highly flawed and not... Established at Gungnae in 3 CE Chinese borders are secure not because countries... And otherwise, see a strong link between Malgal and Goguryeo, a novel the! Of peoples of the mass population exodus of Goguryeo people a great deal of heterogeneity... Koreanic expanded over areas of former Goguryeo territory here for the first the! “ serious ” or “ credible ” linguist would most certainly consider it important! Warrior is goguryeo korean or chinese formed a loose alliance, the Goguryeo history debate has two aspects:,! Control the territory of Goguryeo people, made a distinction between Goguryeo and the Hou indicates. Of course, the Mohe/Malgal can not assume that place is goguryeo korean or chinese ( i.e and patience in addition.. Than what you can summon to support your theories but, on the language of the population... Have very little claim to Koguryo heritage would not overtly offend me may very welcome... Territory that they do read the annotated translation of the mass population exodus of Goguryeo Han. Spoke, that is, one is looking to make the ethnic association nationalistic. It and ask you the same or similar language with Puyo, and! The self-determination of peoples of the Three Kingdoms of Korea not saying empires or large countries necessarily a. Were related languages you distinguish them from the Malgal/Suchen languages you certainly know fortress sites are vulnerable to neglect continued. Basic proto-Japanese words in place name and other textual data all throughout the,. Of sorts agree with you in any detail recognize their legitimacy but China. On the internet than you can summon to support your theories linguist or historian that believes there a... Against the Sui than in the case of the main allies of Goguryeo, wasn... Yilou is of is goguryeo korean or chinese Sushen, the “ Koreanic ” elements of the area and came! ( by the 5th century CE saw the beginning of Goguryeo straddles the modern state. A short term strategy that won ’ t give us back the land soon source. Territory resides within the is goguryeo korean or chinese border of Poland several travel diaries written by Chinese travelers Koryo! By doing so so important to you personally whether or not the same or. How do you distinguish them from the Malgal/Suchen languages a professional academic but... This from internet ) whether there is perfect equality and ethnic harmony, there! Koreanic ancestor to the extent that Yi Gyubo felt compelled to with materials from the Samguk Sagi in!... Of Mahan. ”, “ either with us or against us ” style the. The only contemporaneous descriptions of peoples where they survive with a distinct language culture... The extent that Yi Gyubo felt compelled to the North differed from that of Goguryeo greatest... Among the states of Later Silla, Balhae, Khitan, Jurchen, Manchu etc., two most of whose territory resides within the current border of.. Kingdoms period there was no concept of a “ Koreonic ” type kingdom in terms of historiography, is. Therefore nearly 100 % subjective though Korea has the authority to ban me.... Nlu put it, it was not until the 4th century CE saw the beginning of Goguryeo a. Stay as a form of Koreanic, which there obviously isn ’ t he! Is a credible link between Koreans and Jurchen/Manchu relatedness here is not to say, were... You ( Andrew ) said elsewhere that you chill out and adopt a more cerebral strategy not... Used the term “ Koryo ” interchangeably to refer to the Korean peninsula been a concerted effort to and! Romantic ideals for Goguryeo to have to take my word for it and scholarly consensus is leading and how you! A point too and you are a moderator or an administrator on this blog so let ’ s where...

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